Fansub review for the Hyouka was completed last night, and all releases, including my own, had a bunch of errors. Admittedly, nobody’s script was bad enough to be labeled with “F” grade, but number of mistakes can be quantified, and I had a grading scheme ready. Viewers just have to see the “difficulty” level to change their expectations.
It’s not my intention piss off other groups with my review. It’s to help viewers choose, provide constructive criticism for other fansubbers and maybe used to avoid making similar mistakes (even Hadena‘s leader had enough common sense to ask me about those mistakes), and to further improve my own translation skills. I didn’t want to turn this into a shitstorm and valerauko is in a same group as me, but this Commie joke has lasted long enough. Why they are reviewing other groups when their release is worse than other groups… is beyond me.
The full post is pasted below and italicized. I’ll explain every error other than the ones he already admitted to be wrong.
So apparently my translation of Hyouka has “way too many errors to fully understand everything being said”. Sure there are mistakes (as I pointed out in an earlier post), but that doesn’t make the release incomprehensible. I don’t care if people call my translations bad, because “bad” is subjective and if there are mistakes in it, then it’s justified. On the other hand, I can’t stand it when people label my stuff “guesslation” (as happened before). When I hear that “you can’t understand everything being said” I don’t think of “oh they must have made a mistake or two” but “hell they fucked up the whole thing”. Which is not the case.
It starts as early as the very first line. The matter at hand is quite troublesome. He uses a color analogy of “rose-colored” and “gray”, which have clear and obvious meanings in Japanese (and sound poetic) – on the other hand, as can be seen from the debate it stirred up in the comments at Whiners, that isn’t the case in English. It sure is obvious for translators, because we understand what’s being said before we translate it. That doesn’t mean it’s necessarily the same meaning in the target language. In this case I took the risky shot at changing rose-colored and gray to high (point) and low (energy), which makes sense in English and other than the words “rose-colored” are falling out of the bulletin board near the end of the episode, it doesn’t seem to have any importance.
Calling something that’s a matter of tastes an error? I may do that here, because I made it clear that I point out stuff that I don’t like or don’t agree with, which doesn’t necessarily mean they are incorrect. In a review that claims to be objective this won’t do. High and low gets the analogy through perfectly, and the colors simply don’t matter.
Let’s think this through for a second. Subtitle is made mainly for people who don’t speak the language. This means if something is missing in subs, it’s not getting to the target audience.
Symbolism in color is common in just about all cultures, so the viewers can see them on screen. However, the main character goes out of his way to use specific colors to describe his life.
The original author could’ve easily used equivalent terms for “flamboyant” and “dull” to describe this, but he chose to use color, and KyoAni even put cherry blossom in the opening scene to compliment those words. This is the opening monologue for this show. If you’ve seen even 10 shows with such introduction scenes, it would be clear to you that this line sets the tone and main theme of an entire series.
I don’t understand how anyone who has ever translated anything would actually tell me it’s fine to remove those colors in this scene. “Making sense in English” is important., but can writing an entirely different script that removed symbolism expectation for an entire show even be considered to be a translation? I can understand simplifying these things in a random conversation in Ep7 or something, but important lines like these should be translated with care.
What happened here was that they encountered a line that they didn’t know how to render in understandable English, so they chose to dodge the entire theme by scriptwriting a line that will set the tone for rest of the series, and even referenced in the very same episode. In essence, this line was dumbed down to the point that it didn’t reflect the impact and effect it would’ve had on the Japanese audience.
Apparently translating 寂しい生き方 (sabishii ikikata) literally (really literally) as a “lonely way to live” is incorrect. No, it’s not.
“Lonely way to live” would be 「孤独な生き方」in Japanese for the very reason「寂しい生き方」would be a “sad” or “pathetic” way of life. This is indisputable in context, and leads to the next scene with Fukube going “I didn’t know you were a masochist” or stiffer way of putting it, “I didn’t know you like to hurt yourself.” Avoiding clubs and romance doesn’t automatically make you feel lonely. They clearly hate interacting with people. Fukube said his line because Houtarou just openly admitted that’s a sad way to live.
So not translating the girls’ lines here is apparently a mistake as well. Well, I guess that’s kind of valid. However, unlike later in the episode when Eru and Satoshi are talking while Houtarou is thinking, these lines here can not be understood at normal volume, just by paying attention. In my eyes that means that it’s not meant to be understood. You don’t add the subs for sped-up or incomprehensible dialog even if you tweak the audio enough to make it understandable. Consider what the average Japanese watcher would understand.
Their conversation is not important at all, but the “camera” is zoomed right at them. Why did the camera just move away from the two main characters to show these two random girls A and B? Because it shows there are still people around the room, and chatting like that after class with friends is a normal part of high school life. MC doesn’t like to be part of bigger groups, but he’s not entirely antisocial and still has a friend to chat after school. Yeah, you can still tell they’re talking, but what they’re saying isn’t school work. It’s casual chatter between friends, just like the two main characters.
Why did I omit the walking scene later when those are support characters? Because the main dialog was a monologue. Do you know what that is? Monologues are included in TV shows so that characters can talk directly to the audience and express what they’re thinking or feeling. That’s automatically far more important than anything else being said in the same scene.
The volume for the conversation was toned down even though they were right in front of him (as opposed to this one, from distance of the main character). It’s not even possible to hear both for an average Japanese viewer, and you’ve omitted parts of it because it’s hard to hear. This is not discernible unless you were paying attention specifically to the background, and I made the compromise to omit it entirely as soon as the monologue had begun, because my translation style is to create a script that can be understood without pausing. It’s distracting and you’re less engaged when you see texts all over the place. Just like TV. There is no reason to distract the audience in that scene IMO, and it’s far more important to absorb the monologue.
Of course this is technically leaving things untranslated, so I penalized myself. You have done the same, so I penalized you as well. I fail to see the problem.
You think of a history club at the mention of “Classics Club”? I suggest you read more classics then.
Movies can be “classics”. Songs can be classics. So can art, or anything that’s a piece of work. Google search gives me a bunch of golf fan clubs and ancient history clubs that goes on museum visits and departments for ancient history. I did find some that’s only about literature, but why pick a confusing one when there’s an alternative that somewhat describe it 100% of the time? It’s not like “Classics Club” is perfect. Admittedly, “Book Club” loses a lot of detail, but is the description “old and still known today” more important than what it’s actually about?
It doesn’t really matter which one is better, because they both aren’t equivalent titles for the club.
Again, I have penalized both choices because neither fully describe what the club sounds like it is from the Japanese title.
Yeah, I indeed made a mistake on this line. I misheard と as a の. It’s supposed to be “aikido and restraining techniques.” I’m not sure what 逮捕術 (taihojutsu, lit. arresting arts) exactly covers (never even heard about it before), but according to the Japanese wiki, although it has the usual martial arts moves (kicks, punches etc), these are only used to suppress and restrain the opponent.
Two different martial arts. Pretty obvious.
I pointed out this mistake myself earlier.
“My son, you haven’t introduced me to your fiance yet.” “She’s not my fiance!” This is called an assumption. Liberal it may be, but I wouldn’t call it an error.
This can be acceptable depending on level of tolerance to free translation, but the guy is hiding behind the door. This line is totally acceptable if she said “who’s that beside you?” and he was standing right beside the MC, but that’s not the case.
“Would-be” works all right for me here, replace with “wannabe” or something along those lines if you feel like nitpicking.
“Would-be” implies he will become one in the future. This line is said by the same guy who later says he knows a lot of useless things. The term he chose means nothing but “fake”.
You can twist the story to say he does approve of his skills inside, and didn’t want to just say he’s smart because it’d feed his ego, but obviously you didn’t translate that line, and that’s still a stretch from what we’ve seen in Ep1. This is scriptwriting.
It’ll go to his head and he won’t ever shut up again. This is within the range of a valid liberal translation for me.
It’s pretty apparent that you have misheard this line for some variant of「付きまとう」or guesslate rather than translating from「付きあがる」. Mazui made the same error. I don’t see how him getting conceited can be translated to “never get rid of him” in this or pretty much any other context.
This is really a bit over-simplified. 成績優秀、眉目秀麗、深窓の佳人 (seiseki-yuushuu, bimoku-shuurei, shinsou no kajin, lit. good grades, beautiful, beauty raised with tender care). We don’t mention her upbringing.
“If he starts thinking, he’s reliable”? Really? You can be sure he’ll reach a conclusion. Not necessarily solve the problem, but something will come out of it. That’s what reliable means.
My literal TL suggestion was ”[...] he can be pretty reliable” and I used “you can bet on him.” He can’t reach to the conclusion 100% of the time, but the point of the line is that he’s actually very sharp despite him not caring about anything. Not implying he’ll absolutely reach a conclusion. This is nitpicking though.
I interpreted his いい加減だな (ii kagen da na) to refer to how he’s overdoing the whole literary style. This line feels just too far from the one where he changes the setting to refer to it. I may be wrong of course. As for the “bloodshot” mistake in this scene, I already pointed it out in the notes post. The “half-closed” gets the sleepy clue across though, alleviating the seriousness of the mistake.
This is a clear error. Now that I look at it, it seems like it’s a literal error by translating「加減」as “amount”. A pretty elementary mistake.
There is no arguing this line means “you’re not stressing over the details and just changed the story after my correction” or literally “You’re so half-assed”. Mazui‘s “Drama over accuracy, huh?” was an epic-tier localization for this line, and one of their lines that was best out of the three groups, as I mentioned in the review.
Again, I don’t know why you would insert the “half-closed” line out of nowhere in a scene with a lot of description already, especially when her eyes are wide-open. You added a clue where it didn’t exist, and it went horribly because it didn’t match the video. If this isn’t scriptwriting gone wrong, I don’t know what is.
“From whom”? I see a “who” clean and clear. The “when” is missing, but in this context I think the “where” is enough. In Japanese it’s easy to pile interrogatives like that, but in English it doesn’t work. Nor is it important.
I did write the wrong thing, but the point still stands. This line show’s his obsession for details so he can attempt to solve the mystery. Fukube’s response shows he was capable of answering the question in the exact order because he’s a database and remembers every detail of where he got the information. MC uses him as a database with those queries.
He just made up this whole seven wonders thing. “We could call it the second wonder” or something along those lines. “Could be” ispassable.
This is just horrible nuance. “Could be” implies Fukube didn’t already decide it’s the second, yet Fukube’s already said very clearly this is the second wonder on his list.
Recruitment memo? Recruitment note? Just nope. Maybe notice, that would really be better than poster, considering its nature.
It’s a a note that’s physically pinned to the bulletin board. Just like how the poster is a notice, but it’s a physical object that’s not ripped out of a notebook. Translating a piece of memo as “poster” is in no way accurate.
Do not rewrite the script. Translate.
There have been recruitment notices popping up for years. Obvious they have known about them, but have no authority over them. 把握 (haaku) can mean to be in control of something. True, it can also mean to grasp or to understand, but to me that would sound like the council didn’t know the full extent of the club’s activities, not that they didn’t know about their existence.
I’m sorry, but「把握」is rarely used to describe control in Japanese. This is not 「手の内にある」”In the palm of hand” equivalent.
This line is 100% “[not] known”, or in the same usage, “grasp [of knowledge]” . Also, “they know about the club, but don’t know what is does” is the exact meaning of that line, and that’s not exactly same as “under their authority”.
Taking some liberty and called it an “unofficial club” to describe their relationship with the committee is fine, but what it translates to is “for a club we know nothing about”. They know there’s a club, but knows nothing about it.
“Corner of the building” is what she literally says, but corner (隅 sumi) has the meaning of a place out of the way in a building. Replace “place” with “nook” if you feel like nitpicking.
As for the problem with the clubs, 水墨画 (suibokuga, I hear her say that first) does mean painting in India ink. I personally have no idea what that actually is (nor do I care, considering how much importance it has on the plot), so I’m not going to argue. The missing club is either 理科 (rika, science) or 囲碁 (igo, the board game go). I’m not sure because of the distortion.
不慣れな奴ほど奇をてらう (funarena yatsu hodo ki wo terau). In retrospect I would probably go very liberal with this line. The point of it is that people doing something they’re not used to (they are 不慣れな), tend to do it in a roundabout way.
I should’ve added “arguable” to this line. However, “you stand out because you’re don’t know what you’re doing” is hardly a smart line this line was treated as. In context, it’s much more likely to be a line from the third-person perspective: Something you see that isn’t acting in a common way stands out, just like another Japanese saying「木は森に隠せ」(“hide a tree in the forest”). This line could’ve been an acceptable interpretation though.
Either way, this line is a clear mistranslation because “more you want to show off” part makes no sense at all. The intention is to hide the note. The appropriate word was “more you stands out”, so it’s an error on an important line.
I pointed out these lines in the notes post. I really did miss the point here (if I accidentally managed to get some of it across, that’s a relief). Apologies, etc. I also noted that I have no idea about baseball phrases.
He just wanted to keep things as they are. He didn’t want to refuse her flat out, but he himself didn’t realize why. He didn’t want to tell her to piss off, but he didn’t want to use much energy either. This is a situation that you call a status quo.
This is explained in the technicals section. There’s no need to explain it again. He delayed her asking the question. Not pissing her off.
I know there are mistakes (and I still hold my opinion that only that “nothing better to do” in the beginning and the “change the subject” in the end are really serious mistakes), and maybe next time I’ll take a whole day to pass over it a dozen times to fix them all just be more careful. The translation doesn’t make sense? You can’t understand the story? Well, too bad for you then. It seems to make sense to 20 thousand people.
Nobody can understand the story with these subs. 20,000 viewers never complained because they understood the story you wrote, a simplified version of the story. Mazui‘s translation is harder to understand, but their script at least had closer resemblance to what was actually being said, which is a slightly better translation in my books. This release is very well done for the speed of your release, but it’s nowhere near sufficient in terms of full enjoyment of this series. That’s one of the reasons a lot of people find this show boring, because it’s not an ecchi or action show where the script isn’t as important for the purpose of entertainment, and the script is toned down way too much.
People make mistakes, but the fact you’re still arguing when I pointed out the mistake shows that your Japanese is nowhere near fluent, nor near my level. I’ve seen a lot of false accusations of errors in your review for quite some time, and I strongly suggest you double check the facts before even attempt to point out mistakes or refute mine if you’re going to continue, before someone else might shows up and embarrass you again.
As for Commie, it really seems their whole culture is about not giving two shits about the original dialog, as seen from their response to the review. I always hear people saying crap about Commie, but I’ve always given you guys the benefit of doubt. Errors are inevitable when you translate fast, and maybe the group wanted wanted to add personality to the script that match the characters rather than boring recycled stock translation all the time, or maybe it’s just lack of resources to TLC after editing, but I was apparently wrong. It’s just all about scriptwriting lines that seem to make sense and reads naturally in English.
I pointed out that story comprehension is an extremely important skill for fansubbers. If translators and editors don’t understand the show, all the viewers won’t. It was clearly the case with the Commie release, as the staff who worked on it can’t even see the importance of color in this show, not to mention a whole bunch of errors that weren’t just about not understanding Japanese.
Anime is more than just the story. There are visual cues and details that can completely change viewer experience, especially for a more “serious” show like Hyouka. I like seeing localized subs, and great interpretation of lines, but subtitle should match the audio in terms of meaning, tone, and effect.
If “the story makes sense” is the only goal, then you’re setting a very low standard. Translation doesn’t mean you can just write whatever makes sense or sounds nicer. If you want to just have fun with the script, go ahead. Don’t use false information to try to justify it when someone tells you it’s a mistake.
If you want to compete maybe you should get a competent editor.
Posted by herkz | April 25, 2012, 7:58 pmThat was quick
Posted by Jukey | April 25, 2012, 7:59 pmI don’t need to compete. Your release is not a competition.
Posted by 8thSin | April 25, 2012, 8:01 pmYou’re right. Most leechers don’t care and will download our release regardless.
Posted by herkz | April 25, 2012, 8:02 pmMore download equals better release. Oh, wait. It’s not.
Enjoy your 20,000 brain dead fans.
Posted by 8thSin | April 25, 2012, 8:09 pmSeems like the only objective measure here.
Posted by herkz | April 25, 2012, 8:36 pmY’know, counting hits is what made Rebecca Black famous… Just saying
Posted by FalseDawn | April 25, 2012, 9:30 pmOh wow, way to argue that your release is the best. You pretty much just said you’ll release anything as long as the leechers dl it. Kudos.
Posted by FalseDawn | April 25, 2012, 8:37 pmI have no intention of arguing with 8th about how good our release is since he doesn’t look like he wants to budge on anything.
Posted by herkz | April 25, 2012, 8:45 pmWell, you’re hardly giving him food for thought, herkz, when your only argument is “most leechers don’t care.”
Posted by FalseDawn | April 25, 2012, 9:05 pmThere’s been a lot of discussion elsewhere, plenty of which I’m sure you’ve seen yourself.
Posted by Xythar | April 25, 2012, 9:07 pmTrue enough. I think 8th has probably ended up making this blogpost mostly because Commie staff have argued the toss without bringing up any real points.
I mean, I’ve held my hands up a number of times as an editor and gone “Yup, went a little too far there,” when I’ve overliberalized and tls+editors have to do that sometimes when they’re constantly pushing the boundaries of localization. We’re always gonna overstep at some point, but you have to know when to step back and admit fault.
Of course, that doesn’t mean you’re not allowed to argue to the hilt if you think you’re in the right, but the onus of proof is on the defendant~
As was said on Whiners: “Have a little pride in your craft.” If you’re ignoring the constructive criticism, can you really have that much pride in what you’re producing?
tl;dr Dorama’s always fun~
Posted by FalseDawn | April 25, 2012, 9:27 pmI don’t aim to ignore any constructive criticism levelled at the release, but neither do I have to agree with all of it.
As I’ve said elsewhere, I’m not averse to bringing back the color theme if by the second episode or so it ends up being important. You have to make quick decisions when you launch into the first episode of a new show blind, and sometimes you need to adjust your approach as further details come to light – that’s just part of the process of speedsubbing a show episode by episode instead of doing everything at the end. At this point, I think it’s still too early to call either way whether our ep1 approach was the correct one or not.
Everyone makes judgment calls to simplify details for the sake of flow, even the author of this very article (e.g. classic literature club -> book club). Sometimes they work out, and sometimes you realise later that they don’t. It’s not an inherently flawed approach in of itself.
Posted by Xythar | April 25, 2012, 9:34 pmAnd I suddenly I see Commie staff giving almost Hadena-like arguments. It’s sad, indeed.
What I can say: Commie’s translation was pretty good for the speedsub it is, most of the errors 8thsin points out are not that serious, and you get the meaning anyway, and I liked the editing style. gg is still unquestionably better, tho. It’s pointless to argue about it.
Posted by erejnion | April 26, 2012, 3:41 amCommie is starting to be like a few fansubs I know in the spanish scene that everything is about speed over quality.
Posted by RDF2050 | April 25, 2012, 8:47 pmNo, not really. We could get Hyouka out several hours faster if we didn’t edit it.
We work pretty hard to release what we feel is a good script according to our personal preferences for what we like to see in fansubbing. As you might imagine, this causes frequent clashes with people who hold different values for how they feel fansubbing should be done. I personally have no problem co-existing with different styles of translation (that way everyone wins) and I’m sorry that things had to come to this in the first place.
vale and I will continue to do everything we can to deliver the story as best we understand it.
Posted by Xythar | April 25, 2012, 8:53 pmYou crossed the line, I am from Spain, and I HAVE to read English translations because more than half of Spanish translations are VERY bad… I still tremble when remembering Kara no Kyoukai, and have to run from the speed shitslation of Fate Zero… UTW is just that good…
Difference in opinnion is all I see in this post, I like the speed subs with at least this quality, because sometimes you just want to take a quick look to a chapter before it is really translated (oh… fate zero), so if the at least can get you the point of all the script, that’s a plus, OK you lost some meaning, but the conversation is there and you can now what is this about.
Quality over speed is always better in the long run, but, self confidence and a bit of speed at the cost of perfect quality is needed even more at the start of a show.
I have worked as translator of a Light Novel and let me tell you something, I did not do the best job possible, I just give my all and tried to make the text legible, understandable and making sense at the same time, I lost meaning of some sentences, but that is why translator or editor notes are for and even second versions if needed once you learn more about a point.
Enjoy Anime, everyone.
Posted by Clead HeavenHell | June 12, 2012, 5:00 pm“You’re right. Most leechers don’t care and will download our release regardless.”
Wow, that’s sad.
Posted by Cloudenvy | April 25, 2012, 8:48 pmSad and completely true.
Posted by Nemui | April 26, 2012, 2:14 amAlways nice to see someone with pride in their work speak out. People no longer seem to look into things in depth and gain real perspective. Most just jump on a bandwagon, and support it in order to feel that they’re choices are right. Unfortunately this just puts a burden on anyone who wants to see things outside the populist perspective when they try to contribute.
“There are visual cues and details that can completely change viewer experience” I’m particularly glad to see this, it always bugs me when I see heavy localization under the pretense that this is needed for translations and that there is no room for being literal… It’s not a book, in it’s native form the audience is expected to draw upon other cues to fully comprehend. So unless you think your audience is particularly brain dead this should be your approach as well.
Posted by meh | April 25, 2012, 8:49 pm“Most just jump on a bandwagon, and support it in order to feel that they’re choices are right.”
How ironic.
Posted by brainchild | April 25, 2012, 8:56 pmYeah sure real ironic. At the time of my comment there were maybe 4 comments, most of which were from the same set of posters. The first part of the comment was about using the fact that thousands of people who follow a particular group don’t see it the same way as a means to discredit what was expressed. The second part was just agreement about something that was part of the article. Not sure what you find ironic about that. Brainchild… really…. that reply suggest it was the brainchild of an invalid.
Posted by meh | April 29, 2012, 2:42 amOK, so, mildly above average style fan here. I watched all three release before I became acquainted with the “festivities” surround this show on various blogs, etc. After said festivities, I watched all three again, with the critiques in mind.
gg, and 8th’s script flows the best, makes the most sense, and has the best entertainment value.
The best case I can make is this: the gg release has a better grip on the characters.
The MC is, for lack of a better term, a shit-heel. He’s clever, but unmotivated. He’s sharp, but doesn’t hone that sense beyond what is in front of him. He’s lazy. And he makes excuses for it.
The opening monologue is important It establishes every single thing about this guy. The Commie release, and even Mazui concentrate on the dullness. gg’s release adds that second level and keeps it as a through narrative, all the way to the closing monologue.
You can see what this character is about, even with the sound off. KyoAni shines in this show. Body language, camera moves, framing, color selection, special effects tell you everything you need to know about the MC and the rest of the cast. Mazui did a good job matching that, gg does better. Commie does re-write this to the point where the script doesn’t match the screen.
The first three way conversation with our main characters in Commie’s release is stiff, and disjointed. gg’s release has some issues with flow (Chitanda showing obvious surprise at the news that someone is see this sunset get-together as a date, and is worried about the outcome was a bit off).
I could go on, but I now realize that I’m picking apples and oranges.
gg’s is the best of the three. At least for this guy.
Posted by skylion | April 25, 2012, 9:07 pmand meanwhile at the Mazui camp, not a single shit has been given. perhaps Commie should learn a bit from that lol.
Posted by 1KyzZi | April 25, 2012, 9:28 pmWhy so up in arms? Constructive criticism. It appears almost everywhere. Like all pieces of advice they can be good or bad, and you can take it or leave it. Even if you disagree, saying something like,
“Thanks for the criticism, noted.” makes you sound much more like a reasonable person than just bashing and posting dl numbers. They really don’t mean anything since groups like Hadena get downloads… In fact they got over 20k for some of their Zero no Tsukaima F episodes.
Posted by Ehh | April 25, 2012, 9:43 pm“It’s not like “Classics Club” is perfect. Admittedly, “Book Club” loses a lot of detail, but is the description “old and still known today” more important than what it’s actually about?”
Solution: Classical Literature Club. If it’s too long, you also have Classical Lit, Classic Literature, or (in the most compact form) Classic Lit.
Posted by thecowgoesmoo | April 25, 2012, 9:55 pmYeah, I was actually thinking of abbreviating to CLC like SOS Brigade lol, but it didn’t seem very appropriate.
I was thinking of just using full title the first time, then abbreviate with a shorter form later for v2 and onwawrd.
I like Classic Lit. I might just go with that.
Thanks thecowgoesmoo.
Posted by 8thSin | April 25, 2012, 10:06 pm2 cents: Given that we don’t know what the club actually does, if it will end up doing anything at all, other than being a place where these friends meet and do the “scooby doo routine”, why dither on the name at all.
Classics seems to be the best choice. As you clearly state above, it could be literature, it could be art, it could be movies or music. Hell, it could be any, all, or none. For my money, it’s a club in name only; the name in immaterial to say the very least. Since they bill the show having some supernatural elements, maybe just joining in starts the show off.
Classics can means anything, everything or nothing.
But, I do note that this might be an overgenerous interpretation.
Posted by skylion | April 25, 2012, 10:14 pmThat’s a good argument for Classics club, but even if they did appreciate art and music etc, it still doesn’t mean it should be translated as a “club for everything classic”. It’s a “Classic literature Club” that doesn’t bind itself to just literature.
Which one is better may be subjective, but technically they’re both not exactly what it is, so both choices were marked as errors.
Posted by 8thSin | April 25, 2012, 10:27 pmIf you look at what’s taught in classics departments in academia, it’s mostly topics on the art (literature, visual arts, everything) and cultures of ancient Mediterranean civilizations, mostly of Rome and Greece. I only vaguely know about this since my history-major friend later got a degree in classics. Otherwise I would mostly have no idea wtf it is that they study in some areas of the humanities.
To me, “classics club” would give the wrong idea, worse than “book club” anyhow. “Classic lit.” sounds fine to me for future use.
Posted by temp_late | April 25, 2012, 11:47 pmIn high school, tho, it’s safe to assume a “Classics” club would be about literature.
Posted by erejnion | April 26, 2012, 3:53 am古典 means “classical” works of literature as in those old classics borrowed over from the Chinese (think Confucius) and some other stuff added to the literary canon by the Japanese themselves.
None of these characters even mean “classic”, but “ancient writings”. It’s translated as “the classics” or “classical literature” simply by correspondence to the western studies of the Classics, i.e. ancient Greek and Roman philosophy, literature, and art.
Posted by An_idiot | April 26, 2012, 10:21 amFor what it’s worth, as a current Classics major, changing “Classics Club” to “Book Club” annoyed the hell out of me.
The nuance might be very different for the Japanese (in which case, forget about this), but the connotations are very different in English.
Let me put it this way: somebody who belongs to a Classics Club is also the kind of person who’s likely to care about whether the use of color imagery in an opening monologue is translated or not.
Posted by The Kenosha Kid | April 27, 2012, 2:34 pmYeah, I have to admit “Book Club” is a terrible nuance for the club, but “Accuracy” section is all about technicals, and the fact that “Book Club” is more specific than “Classics Club” (can be completely wrong depending on viewer’s interpretation), makes it a better choice in terms of accuracy only.
Posted by 8thSin | April 27, 2012, 5:52 pmgg’s is clearly the best as far as the translation goes.
I watched commie’s release first, but then watched gg’s release afterwords.
The latter was infinitely more enjoyable because they kept, for lack of a better word, the “intelligence” of the dialog.
Seriously, you can tell from the beginning that this show has excellent dialog, and I certainly don’t want to read it in a washed-out state.
Though, a stronger editor would definitely help make the English itself flow more smoothly.
Posted by Nyangoro | April 25, 2012, 10:05 pmWell, I’m mostly to blame for that, because I only finished the script at 1am and he was still typesetting the show (pretty short on staff) because my sign translation was delayed too.
It’ll probably a bit better next time ^^;
Posted by 8thSin | April 25, 2012, 10:18 pmI’m sorry, but「把握」is never used to describe control in Japanese. “In the palm of hand” is an English idiom.
Someone better tell these folks that they’re wrong then:
http://bit.ly/Ir0LJX
Though fwiw, I agree 100% with your interpretation of that word.
Posted by kokujin-kun | April 25, 2012, 10:57 pmThat’s one I disagree with, though. As I understand it, the council supposedly knew about the secret club for some time (it’d be hard not to, considering that the story said about how in a previous year their ex-club president revealed the existence of the club to the Student Council president at graduation), they just had no idea who was actually behind it.
I mean, even if you have a look at the line in gg’s release:
“It would seem there is a secret club unknown to the Executive Committee, running recruitment in secret.”
That doesn’t make logical sense to me on its own. The person saying the line is in the committee in question, so how could he bring up the club if he doesn’t know about it?
Posted by Xythar | April 25, 2012, 11:14 pmthey just had no idea who was actually behind it.
And that’s pretty much what 把握していない means in my book.
Also, too, that VERY unimportant dialogue between those two girls that apparently you guys chose not to sub since you can’t make out the words? Apparently the Japaneseses, (or at least those who troll certain BBS boards) can’t make it out either.
http://ikura.2ch.net/test/read.cgi/voiceactor/1334598636/l50
So whoever can hear that line can hear better than your average native, I guess.
Posted by kokujin-kun | April 26, 2012, 12:08 amThat as may be, there’s a difference between “they don’t even know of the club” and “they know of the club, but not who runs it or the details”.
Here’s the scripts for comparison:
gg:
It seems there’s a secret club that even the General Affairs Committee doesn’t know of,
and they’re recruiting in secret.
Their activities and members are unknown,
but they must exist under the name…
Under the name…
Black Widow Society.
Commie:
There seems to be a secret club outside the authority of the council,
covertly recruiting new members.
We don’t know what they do or who they are, but they exist.
Their name is…
Their name is?
The Golden Web.
As far as I can see, ours includes all important details, avoids the logic error of having Satoshi talk about a club that the council has no knowledge of (while he clearly knows of it) and is better in terms of text length to boot.
Posted by Xythar | April 26, 2012, 12:17 amI thought it just needed past tense somehow, but you’re right that’s a logic error. I was too focused on 17:58, didn’t realize the potential logic error later =_=; I’ll fix that to the paste.
Still, that line can’t be about control… 「把握」is automatically about awareness/understanding unless you specifically add things like “authority” or “securities (property rights)” etc.
Posted by 8thSin | April 26, 2012, 2:03 amThis one scene shows the difference between Commie and 8thsin. One goes for literal accuracy, the other goes for nuanced phrasing.
Reminds me of Professor Yokogawa from UC Berkeley’s translation class. Her first lesson was “It is not what sounds right to you, but what sounds right to most.”
Commie’s TL for this scene flows better and uses active verbs instead of passive verbs. Sounds a lot better and is more readable too.
Posted by Maceart | April 30, 2012, 1:27 amI lol’d a little at “Their name is?” – *very* natural phrasing there
Posted by FalseDawn | April 30, 2012, 7:48 amThat’s weird… I think my hearing is above average, but the line after 「なんで」was pretty clear:「欲しいやつが来月出るんだよ」. 「私は携帯もうちょっと待とうかな？」was harder to hear.
The last one, I heard 「その??」, but it was silenced out half way. 「質問」 or 「回答」 would both match her lips… Kinda BS, but there isn’t anything else to say by pointing and girl reacting “wut”?
Posted by 8thSin | April 26, 2012, 2:24 amAh, okay. I forgot it’s fine if you’re talking specifically about authority.
Definitely should be #2 entry though. It’s almost never used in everyday conversation.
Posted by 8thSin | April 25, 2012, 11:17 pmWeehee, I made you react (and in what a manner, ara-ara). This is good. Thanks.
I didn’t literal いい加減, it just ended up like that. I still hold my point about 把握, as the council knew about them but couldn’t control them.
Let’s have fun competing for the coming half a year. I’m looking forward to seeing how you deal with it. I’m gonna enjoy it.
Posted by Vale | April 25, 2012, 11:57 pmFor a while after the releases, I’ve been hearing people going on about “rose-coloured” and “grey” not being readily understood in English. Is it just that the use of colours to refer to moods and outlooks is in declining use or because it’s too literary? I mean English has “rose-coloured glasses” and I’m pretty sure the connotations behind rose-colored — while it can be romantic — can also be interpreted as having an overly positive outlook, or being generally positive. It requires a bit of thinking, but I don’t think it’s incomprehensible.
The same thing can be said for grey. Grey weather, grey suits, English can attribute a colour to a mood and grey can be seen as dull or downcast.
So I don’t really understand why the mention of these two colours has people up in arms about how it can’t be understood. Can someone explain this to me please?
Posted by S_ | April 26, 2012, 2:12 amThere’s been some talk about it on whiners.pro, e.g.
http://www.whiners.pro/2012/04/prelude-to-my-hyouka-reviews/#comment-16461
Posted by Xythar | April 26, 2012, 2:43 amThank you
Posted by S_ | April 26, 2012, 3:42 amThe gist of it is that “rose-colored” in Japanese means something different than it does in English. Your interpretation of the color is a perfect example, as that is not what is meant.
Details (and quite a bit of discussion) can be found following Xythar’s link.
Posted by corocoro | April 26, 2012, 4:45 amAgain, in English. Why don’t you try to comprehend it in canton or wanton or any other language which have richer content than English?
The problem is only with the language. Language = the biggest barrier in understanding each other. And we’re all knows that English has poorer language inventory compared to any other Asian language, such as Japan or Chinese. English don’t have any “language-grade”, or complex idiom, or any richer content which Google translated as “style of language”. This been a problem since ancient time.
Now, we’re being faced by a show which have a lot of Japanese “style of language” which would be impossible/difficult to comprehend if we’d take it into a straight literal translation. But only if you’re western people with English as your first language. Us, non-English speaker (Especially Asians) don’t have any problem comprehend a direct literal translation. Just use a tool called “brain” a little, and nobody would hurt (from “not making any sense” thingy). *sips tea*
Posted by Rose are Grey | April 26, 2012, 8:46 am>But only if you’re western people with English as your first language.
Yes. This is the target audience. I’m not sure about the other groups, but at Commie at least we don’t make English subs aimed at the Chinese.
Posted by Xythar | April 26, 2012, 3:13 pm>we don’t make English subs aimed at the Chinese
LOOKS LIKE I’M NEVER WATCHING COMMIE AGAIN OTL
j/k XD
Posted by 1KyzZi | April 27, 2012, 2:06 amThanks for the hearty laugh!
Posted by Erunno | April 27, 2012, 1:46 pmCommie has never really been a competent group, it’s still amazing people take them seriously.
Posted by anonymous | April 26, 2012, 12:31 pmThis basically sums it up.
Credibility of the sub groups is more important than any good ‘one-shot’. GG has lost its credibility long ago, so even if they have an ‘amazing’ translator now, just from the name of GG, people will deter from those releases.
Commie is/was never the greatest; people go to them for ‘safe’ subs when there’s no other alternative.
Mazui on the hand, has the greatest credibility and so most people will seek Mazui, simply because past releases were done well and fans will expect them to improve in the future (or assume they were right to begin with).
Posted by asd | April 26, 2012, 3:10 pmYep, I guess that’s why most people are watching Mazui for this show.
Oh, wait.
What was the point of your post again?
Posted by Xythar | April 26, 2012, 3:14 pmWhat’s with Commie and their snobby attitude. Grow up. Learn not to lash out at your viewers and instead learn from the well structured critiques to better yourself, and your work. If you’re not happy with the critics, or think what they say holds no value, ignore it.
Posted by anon | April 26, 2012, 3:37 pmCool dude. Maybe if you had some kind of constructive criticism to say, or even anything related to the discussion at hand instead of pointless e-peen inflation based on anecdotal evidence, I’d be able to say something reasonable right back at you.
Posted by Xythar | April 26, 2012, 3:51 pmCommie does have a point though. They’re the first one out for Hyouka and will most likely get the most downloads. “The early bird gets the worm,” so to speak. My group operates on the same principle.
Unless you’re a complete failure of a group like Hadena, being first has numerous advantages.
Posted by Maceart | April 30, 2012, 1:37 amWrong. Two thirds of all people will watch whatever is released first.
Twenty percent will watch based on group.
Ten percent will watch based on what their friends recommend.
The remainder actually does independent research.
The conclusion is that if your only goal is to get your download count up, you should release first. Quality is tertiary at best.
Posted by corocoro | April 27, 2012, 4:36 amYour source for these statistics are?
Posted by Someone | April 27, 2012, 5:58 amPaying attention to download counts on Nyaa, view counts on a couple boards, counts on my own uploads, reading comments on the blogs of a lot of fansub groups, cross-referencing the whole with AniDB/MAL ratings/approval, reviews here and on Whiners, BakaBT group choices, and internal reviews by me and a couple friends.
Keep in mind the “statistics” also vary a bit for each show – fanservice heavy shows have a higher percentage of people downloading the first release, story/plot heavy shows make people select more carefully, etc.
TL;DR: Educated guess. Feel free to disprove me, as it will only serve to further refine those very rough numbers and might give me new insights into the whole matter as a bonus.
The thing to take away from my post is that download count is a pretty useless indicator for quality – just search for Hadena/SubDESU on Nyaa, Whiners, and here.
Posted by corocoro | April 27, 2012, 6:14 amHadena.
Posted by Rizlim | April 27, 2012, 3:03 pmThat credibility of a group is more important than a single good release or a single bad release. As long as you’re consistent in the long run, you will do well in the eyes of the public, as that’s how you establish credibility.
So in this case, people will flock to Mazui regardless of their poor performance for episode one, and won’t go to GG, regardless of GG’s better performance for episode one.
I’m guessing you’re from Commie, but unfortunately/fortunately I don’t really have much good or bad things to say about Commie. Commie has been the group people to go to when no other ‘good’ group (i.e. UTW, Mazui, Eclipse – imo) are there.
Sorry for the ambiguity.
Posted by asd | April 26, 2012, 3:31 pmThe download counts so far have been Commie > gg > Mazui, though.
I hate to bring download counts into an argument like this because they usually have nothing to do with quality, but that seems to be the entire focus of your argument so I’m not really sure what else I can respond with. I’m not getting any constructive suggestions here beyond “stop being Commie and start being Mazui instead”, which may be a little difficult.
You also shouldn’t act like /a/ and MAL are anything other than a vocal minority, by the way.
Posted by Xythar | April 26, 2012, 3:53 pmIndeed, download counts is a flawed indicator for the quality of subs. And the reason behind it is simple: Commie pumps out more anime than any of the two groups above (combined). So it’s not surprising that Commie would rank first for download counts. However, if what you’re citing indeed refers to a single anime (e.g. Hyouka), then I’ll be incredibly surprised and then there’s not much else for me to say.
I was never trying to recommend anything. I guess you can say I might’ve been stating the obvious: that credibility has a far greater impact than say a one time good or bad episode. So if you do want to extrapolate what I said, I’m basically saying, continue what you’re doing, better yourself whenever you can, and continue this trend for the long run, as that’s key for building up credibility. Don’t get me wrong, Commie has credibility though, but at this point, it pales in comparison to Mazui’s. But once again, this is just me stating the ‘obvious’ – but sometimes the obvious isn’t so obvious.
P.S.
I neither go on 4chan or myanimelist.
Posted by asd | April 26, 2012, 4:48 pmWell of course, that’s never not been my goal.
And yes, I was referring to Hyouka specifically.
Posted by Xythar | April 26, 2012, 5:14 pmHyouka episode 1 only number of dls for the current moment:
Commie – 23877
gg – 10574
Mazui – 12483+1927 = 14410
so, in fact, Commie > Mazui > gg, and gg is close to Mazui even with the one day delay. Thus, maybe, only maybe, we can say that Mazui has credibility, but it seems to pale in comparison to Commie and gg?
Posted by erejnion | April 26, 2012, 9:23 pmWhere are you getting the 12483 figure? I’m seeing 5677+1531 for Mazui on NT (regular + 480p) though of course people could be getting it elsewhere and NT’s download counts aren’t really that accurate besides.
Posted by Xythar | April 26, 2012, 9:38 pmdid you also count in the fact of using ddl and irc?
Posted by berzk | April 26, 2012, 9:41 pmHmm…
Perhaps, Commie’s large fan base is why there are so many DLs. Commie pumps out more anime, making them better known than Mazui (who only does one anime per season, and not always the most popular anime). So since Commie is so well known, and since Commie is relatively ‘consistent’, it’s not surprising that Commie’s numbers are so high. Mazui is basically a niche group. Whoever watched the anime they’ve subbed in the past basically became ‘loyal’ to them, but since they’ve released so little, they don’t have as much exposure as Commie, resulting in a smaller fan base.
As I said before, Commie’s subs are relatively ‘safe’, so perhaps I was underestimating the credibility of Commie and underestimating people’s willingness to adventure and try new subs.
I won’t talk about GG as I can’t think of a reason at the moment why their numbers are so high, especially when they released a day later. The only thing that does come to mind would be those downloaders are GG fan boys from GG’s ‘go-go’ days, as I’ve heard they were pretty good once upon a time.
There’s always more than meets the eye.
Posted by asd | April 26, 2012, 9:51 pmno, please, I am way too lazy. tt numbers, if I remember what I was doing…
Posted by erejnion | May 19, 2012, 9:50 pmThat’s predictable, since Commie is speed-subbing.
Majority is not familiar with sub-groups and dling whatever comes out first.
Calling someone a vocal minority is even worse than ad populum, especially considering that this blog supports opinion of /a/, mal and whoever.
Posted by moshimoshi | April 27, 2012, 2:11 amA little off topic, but I’m just wondering, Do you write gg’s script for Aquarion EVOL?
Posted by TengelicAngel | April 26, 2012, 6:33 pmNo. Other than one-shot TL, everything I’m working on is in Current/Past Projects page.
Posted by 8thSin | April 26, 2012, 7:06 pmi’m not sure but it’s him probably
http://shininggalaxy.wordpress.com
Posted by Anonymous | April 27, 2012, 11:54 amOh, he hasn’t written anything in a while, so I thought he stopped it.
Yeah, it’s Caphi.
Posted by 8thSin | April 27, 2012, 5:40 pmWhat do you mean, I write once a week.
Posted by Caphi | April 27, 2012, 5:43 pmGo 10 years in the past and tell ppl about this – they’ll say, “That was stupid”.
C’mon, this is way too serious and hardly worth it.
I’m a casual viewer of eng fansubs, but also a TL (from eng to rus). So I actually understand both sides to a certain extent. I always prioritize accuracy. To me it’s an unexplainable obsession. But I agree with that commie fansub review blog guy that casual viewers couldn’t care less about a dozen minor mistakes. After reading both your posts, did I think that my viewing experience might have been better with one of the groups? No. This is just nitpicking.
Posted by idiffer | April 27, 2012, 1:01 pmNow that I think about it – if your intention isn’t to piss off other fansubbers, then drop the grading system. Ironically: u called commie fans braindead. Well, truthfully if a person isn’t braindead he doesn’t need the grade u give, just the technicals. And I’m not really trying to piss anyone either…Just my thoughts
Posted by idiffer | April 27, 2012, 1:30 pmIf getting the gist of what’s happening, then you’re setting a very low goal for your translation. You can even understand most of Hadena’s old subs if you actually tried to figure out what it really means, but that’s nowhere nearly how subs should be.
This blog is not meant for everyone. Those who only watch anime for casual entertainment wouldn’t care if one translation is better than another. I need a way to distinguish better subs from worse ones, and sometimes offending other translators are inevitable. If they don’t care, then they can just not respond like Mazui. If they do, they’d better use some legitimate points (and do it privately if they don’t want a public response, as many translators have in the past, and I have adjusted the grades after more clarifications were given for their choice). When someone is arguing that fans don’t care, then he’s pretty much saying fans are brain dead right there in my eyes.
Posted by 8thSin | April 27, 2012, 5:47 pm8thSin, I truly do appreciate the effort and sensibility you constantly put into fansubbing and I’m sure a lot of people feel no different. As hard as it is to believe for some, there ARE people that actually care about getting a top-notch release rather than receiving a speedsub that ultimately sacrifices quality.
This site has been an eye-opener to me on more than a few occasions and has helped immensely in carrying a more accurate opinion about some of the groups and the way they go about fansubbing. This is why I always go with your releases, no matter the group name.
Now, if only we had many more people like you…
Thanks.
Posted by Jaden | April 27, 2012, 2:20 pmI appreciate it
Admittedly, this level of nitpicking isn’t all that important for simple entertainment shows, but I think ones that are meant to be “appreciated in a higher level” should have absolutely the perfect subs.
Posted by 8thSin | April 27, 2012, 5:49 pmI’m in the same position as you, idiffer in the sense that I watch english fansubs and I also translate (EN => FR). I’m translating Hyouka this season and at first I was going to work on Mazui’s releases because they are usually very good. But when I watched the first episode, at some points I was like “Uh, that doesn’t make sense
” . Then I watched commie’s release and it seemed a bit too loose, even with my very limited understanding of Japanese. Then I searched for explanations on the translation choices and I’m glad I found this blog ^^
Anyway, what I wanted to say is that I strongly disagree with you, mister idiffer. I think translating is finding a balance between accuracy and authenticity in your own language (except a few things because I expect the target audience to have a very basic knowledge in Japanese culture). Moreover, you cannot change the original piece of work ! That’s just not respectful towards the creator and towards the viewer, you have to be faithful to the original work. If I were to realise that some lines had been loosely adapted while reading a book, I would feel betrayed because I expect from the translation to give me access to a piece of work that I would not have been able to read/watch otherwise, not to give me access to something ressembling-but-not-quite-the-same. Especially in the case of something deep, as Hyouka seems to be.
Anyway, that was just my point of view, and after watching the 3 versions of episode 1 I have to admit gg’s was the one I enjoyed the most. Keep up with the good work
Posted by Yuu` | April 27, 2012, 5:51 pmHaving read some of the comments here and on Whiners I’m getting the sense that a lot of people are underestimating the versatility of the English language, particularly in regards to colour. This makes me guess that some of you aren’t truly native English speakers, or are simply unaware of the more poetic and vague uses of English that are possible. In any case, just leave the colour analogy in. The context of its use in this and future episodes will do the rest of the work that language alone can’t.
Posted by drdr | April 29, 2012, 5:45 pmI’m a native English speaker with a university degree, and I’ve read plenty of books. The phrase “If I asked you to describe high school life, you’d think of a rose color, and if I asked you to describe a rose color, you’d think of high school life” makes no sense to me. Apparently the intended meaning is “high school is exciting and full of life”, but I’d question how anyone from a similar background could get that meaning from the phrase above without either being told what it means or simply guessing as to the interpretation.
I’m not American, by the way.
Posted by Xythar | April 29, 2012, 7:14 pmI agree that few English speakers reading that line would precisely get the “high school is exciting and full of life” (or whatever it really is) interpretation. Most would probably infer that “rose color” is a positive thing though. At least I did.
The next line of [gg] is “In the eyes of society, high school life is always glorified like the rose color”. The key message is that his view of high school life is different than that of the societal norm, whatever that is.
Anyway, the original line in Japanese apparently has two key meanings: one local and one global. The local meaning is the above, maybe what you’d get from that line out of context. The global meaning deals with the imagery throughout the episode and reference to color, including later talking about a gray color.
In a subtitle, you can’t convey both meanings perfectly in a reasonable number of words using the English language, so you have to make a compromise. The option that ditches the global meaning is pretty weak if you want viewers to actually understand the show.
Some have said that the alternative, leaving in the color reference, may be poor editing because it sounds unnatural. We’re dealing with the opening monologue in which some symbolism is generally expected, so slightly contrived language here is quite acceptable IMHO. With this option, the global meaning is intact, but the local meaning is a bit off (but propped up by context from the ensuing lines).
Pick your poison.
end ignorant American “analysis”
Posted by temp_late | April 29, 2012, 9:04 pmWell, for what it’s worth we went with “Colorful” and “Dull” for the menus in episode 2, and we’ll probably extend that back to the relevant lines in episode 1 whenever it gets v2′d (not sure if it’ll be a standalone one or left for the batch). I think that’s probably an acceptable compromise.
I don’t think you can leave in the “rose colored” analogy and make it have sense, though.
Posted by Xythar | April 29, 2012, 11:27 pm*have it make sense
Derp.
Posted by Xythar | April 29, 2012, 11:27 pmSo will there be a followup on battle of the best fansub for episode 2?
We need a poll up in here.
Posted by asd | April 29, 2012, 10:35 pmNo, and no.
No time to watch every ep, and a poll in my home turf wouldn’t accomplish anything.
Posted by 8thSin | April 30, 2012, 3:21 pmWatching the gg release for episode 2, i do agree with the part that commie ep 1 is a bit too liberal. But GG episode 2.. i don’t understand why kaerinasai is being translated as meet the door at 06:13?
Posted by xcal | April 30, 2012, 9:27 amThat was an editor change, but it means exactly the same thing, with better matching tone than “you can leave now” that I had before.
It is quite liberal, but the whole point is, know where to be liberal and when details are more important. There was nothing of note about that line other than her disdain for Houtarou, and the liberal line shows that better.
Posted by 8thSin | April 30, 2012, 3:24 pm@episode 2, 03:08, gg translated “Someone gave these to us as a gift” while Mazui did “I brought these from home”. Seems contradictory to each other,which one is right?
Posted by AGENT | April 30, 2012, 12:40 pmWell the line is, as far as I can hear:ie no itadaki mono.
itadaki mono means gift (literally the received thing), so you could translate it as: A gift of my home.
You can see how one could interpret that as either a gift to chitandas home by a third party or a gift from chitandas home to chitanda and the other club members.
No idea which one is correct though.
Posted by Anima | April 30, 2012, 1:09 pm「(x)家の頂き物」is gift given to Family x.
「(x)家からの頂き物」is gift given by Family x.
Also, it’s weird if she choose 「頂き物」for something given to you by your own family instead of 「差し入れ」etc
The phrasing is a bit odd, but it’s almost certain that they were given to the Chitandas by a third-party.
Posted by 8thSin | April 30, 2012, 3:14 pmJust to let you know, on episode 2 of Hyōka, at 6:04, Ibara says 「ここは教養の聖域よ」, not 「ここは共用の聖域よ」, according to the book.
Posted by Hermes | April 30, 2012, 4:39 pmThanks. I really need to download the raw scans for TLC.
Posted by 8thSin | April 30, 2012, 7:37 pmLooks like the rose/gray motif came up again in the menus, surely sub groups realize that they should not be replacing the color contrast of rosy and gray with “dull” and “colorful”
Posted by Rai | April 30, 2012, 10:38 pmNot seeing how any meaning was lost using “colorful” and “dull” for that scene as we did. If anything, it makes more sense to the viewer since an English speaker is more likely to connect “colorful” with “exciting”.
Posted by Xythar | April 30, 2012, 10:41 pmThat whole rose/gray fiasco is a perfect example of the false dilemma that the subbing community led itself into, after completely getting rid of translator’s notes for being to obnixious and unnecessary.
Here, the dilemma between using the original phrase and risking that someone don’t get the idiom, or changing it and risking that later visual metaphors will contradict the chosen translation, could have been solved by leaving in the literal colors, and adding a line to the top of the screen about what these colors represent in Japanese culture, just in case someone didn’t get it.
Problem fucking solved.
Posted by Alterego 9 | May 1, 2012, 1:45 pmWhen? There’s barely enough time to read the actual lines, let alone a note saying “TL Note: The color rose in Japanese is associated with an eventful, exciting life” or whatever on top.
Posted by Xythar | May 1, 2012, 3:52 pmIt’s not like tl notes have to be timed for exactly as long as the line that they are about, they could be kept there for even 10 seconds.
I’m not a big fan of the older, overused TL notes either, but this is the one case where if you are really all that worried that the reference won’t go through, even these are less messy than liberally replacing the entire reference and hoping really hard that it wasn’t supposed to be important.
Posted by Alterego 9 | May 1, 2012, 4:13 pmPersonally, I’m not a fan of having to pause to watch anime. There are those who say anime should stay true to the original so that ambiguous lines should be kept in romaji and explained in TL notes, but if you’re trying to stay true to it, anime and any other shows airing on TV or the silver screen are not meant to be paused. Pausing and going back to a scene disrupts flow and engagement while viewing IMO. I certainly dislike the screen being clattered with text, even for background lines.
Translations should be able to function on its own. Some things will always be lost in translation and I prefer to elaborate ambiguous lines in external “TL notes” like the purpose of this blog rather than adding a half-assed one in the video.
Posted by 8thSin | May 1, 2012, 5:02 pmCould always use a technique that Lunar used back in the day or tl noting a particular important point by having a splash at the beginning with the note overlayed on top. It’s very rare to see it done, but could solve the problem using a TL note.
Posted by FalseDawn | May 1, 2012, 6:01 pmI actually don’t mind that technique, and I thought it was put to good use in releases like GotWoot’s Denpa Onna and EveTaku’s InuBoku, but unless there’s a convenient splash screen you can typeset over then it requires modifying the video, and we don’t do that.
If I was going to do that, I’d also prefer to leave the ‘rose colored’ stuff out of the script itself and simply explain the motif afterwards instead. TL notes on an external site work as supplementary information as well, though ideally they shouldn’t be necessary to understand the show itself.
Posted by Xythar | May 1, 2012, 6:39 pm^This!
Adding TL notes is the best way to solve the problem.
P/s: To those who oppose TL notes saying that TL notes are bad examples of translating:
- Have you ever seen notes or footnotes at the end of a book’s page (especially on translated books)? Words translating from one language to another will lose some meaning so TL notes are necessary.
Posted by red CODE | May 1, 2012, 4:11 pmFootnotes are a really good example of the difference between text translation and subtitling.
Text translation doesn’t have duration limitations and usually page/character limits are very loose or nonexistent. On the other hand, subtitling has limited display time and fully expressing the meaning of a line in a reasonable display time is a major challenge.
It’s true pausing is an option, but nobody anime producers create something with the assumption that the audience will pause to fully grasp a scene (Bake/Nisemonogatari included, with its text art), and the same should be applied during the subtitling process.
Posted by 8thSin | May 1, 2012, 5:09 pmFootnotes are a really good example of the difference between text translation and subtitling.
Text translation doesn’t have duration limitations and usually page/character limits are very loose or nonexistent. On the other hand, subtitling has limited display time and fully expressing the meaning of a line in a reasonable display time is a major challenge.
It’s true pausing is an option, but nobody anime producers create something with the assumption that the audience will pause to fully grasp a scene (Bake/Nisemonogatari included, with its text art), and the same should be applied during the subtitling process.
Posted by 8thSin | May 1, 2012, 5:09 pmUhm, haven’t thought about that.
About Bake/Nisemono, the director probably wants watchers to pause when watching the episodes though.
Also, one of the reason why I like TL notes & liberal translation is that I’m not a native English speakers (so I usually want to grasp all the meaning of the translation with the help of TL notes).
Posted by red CODE | May 1, 2012, 6:12 pmtypo: *TL notes & literal translation
Posted by red CODE | May 1, 2012, 6:19 pmAnyone capable of coherent Japanese should be able to guess what level Vale’s Japanese is by reading his TL reviews. Nothing else to say, arguing with Commie is like talking to a wall.
Posted by Kurisukun | May 1, 2012, 3:34 pmGreater than 0 unlike yours?
Posted by herkz | May 1, 2012, 5:50 pmHave you ever considered getting into English fansubbing? It’s quite clear from your posts that you are nothing short of the hero that the fansubbing world needs right now.
Posted by Xythar | May 1, 2012, 5:51 pmEnglish fansubbing wouldn’t work for me since my level of English won’t allow fluid writing. Plus, I don’t have the time to translate within a fixed time frame every week. You could check out some VN’s/LN’s if you want to read my work though.
@herkz
Yup, it’s greater than zero. I nowhere stated his Japanese was bad, all I said was that people with a superior understanding of the Japanese language should be able to guess what exactly his level of proficiency is. Some of his “reviews” gave native Japanese speaking TL’s quite a lol moment.
Clearly he isn’t qualified to “review” translations.
I don’t know about what “posts” of me you’re talking about. So far I gave him my critic just once and backed it up with facts and he wasn’t able to prove me wrong.
Posted by kurisukun | May 2, 2012, 3:02 amMore like they couldn’t be bothered responding to it. I took a quick look at the list and while I can’t say much about what the Japanese lines would or wouldn’t mean, I noticed you misinterpreted a lot of the English used and had completely subjective issues with translations that clearly got across the right idea but just didn’t use certain key words you wanted to see.
It’s clear that you prefer a more literal style of translation, but that doesn’t make all of the things you pointed out incorrect. I doubt either vale or fnord will ever bother coming back here to tell you this, so I’ll just say that you’re even more useless to argue with because you have fundamentally different beliefs as to how translation should be undertaken.
Posted by Xythar | May 2, 2012, 4:00 amOh, I’ve read some of the VNs you’ve worked on and all of them have editing so bad that it makes me ashamed as a fellow editor. So yeah, that’s a fucking terrible argument. Try again.
Posted by herkz | May 2, 2012, 2:24 pm@herkz, what vns/lns are you exactly talking about? my recent works are actually being edited by a professional editor who happens to be a vn fan. i could only dream of english skills like he has. i dont give much thought about the whole literal/liberal stuff, i just go with whatever gets the intended meaning across with accuracy as high as possible. as 8thsin already said, liberal has its limits. certain parts come close to script writing rather than tl. and even if I let these cases slip there clearly were at least 10 tl errors where the translation was simply wrong and several cases with minor glitches.
Posted by kurisukun | May 3, 2012, 3:06 am@Xythar
There exists the Pause button.
If someone complains that he/she doesn’t have enough time to read a line, I don’t know what to say other than go watch a dubbed version.
P/s: to people who complain about the literal vs. liberal issue: just enjoy what is available (like me, because you don’t pay anything for any of those groups to do their jobs) or employ a personal translator (if you have the means to do so) and make him/her translating whatever way you want!
Posted by red CODE | May 1, 2012, 4:23 pmThat’s a poor justification for excessive text length IMO. I’ve tried to watch shows before that had TL notes all over the place and it was frustrating as hell and completely breaks to the flow to have to pause all the time to read notes or lines that were made way too long in order to capture every single detail.
I know none of us are professionals, but that doesn’t mean we can’t at least try to aspire to their standards.
Posted by Xythar | May 1, 2012, 5:46 pmI do admit that releases with too much TL notes annoy the hell out of me, but a little note will do no harm.
Posted by red CODE | May 1, 2012, 6:17 pm…Or to higher ones. Professional TS for example leaves much to be desired for…
Anyway, this isn’t the 90s anymore – there are enough fansubbers (not to mention CR slowly picking up more and more each season) around for everything to get translated even if half of the groups would quit. Demanding the increase in quantity to be accompanied with an increase in quality is not exactly outlandish.
Now, TL notes are good if you want to explain a simple term – like pointing out that xyz is a Jap. candy containing nuts (random example, I know, but at midnight that’s all you’re gonna get from me). It doesn’t break immersion and is short enough to be caught while watching without having to use the pause button. Slapping two or three lines of text explaining an idiom to the top of the screen is a no-go, though. Either explain it externally or put in extended notes after the end of the anime for those interested, but don’t force people to use the pause button. Quite frankly, whenever a viewer with decent English has to do that, the TL/editor failed at doing their job correctly.
Last, but not least, the discussion about how static or dynamic a translation should be will always be around because tastes differ. Luckily the above-mentioned over-abundance of groups means people can chose which release to watch and fansubbers can endlessly talk about which style is best. As long as they go into the discussion with an open mind, chances are good they’ll take something away from it that will help them to better themselves.
Posted by corocoro | May 1, 2012, 6:24 pmYeah, and the last part is ultimately my stance on the whole thing as well. Viewers are fortunate in this case that there are three pretty fast groups all subbing the show, and each one offers a different style of translation and editing, meaning that in the end there’s something for (ideally) everyone. We’ll continue to sub this show in the way that we (and our viewers) like best, even if our style isn’t to everyone’s tastes.
Posted by Xythar | May 1, 2012, 6:51 pmYou need an article when referring to the Moonlight Sonata, by the way. It’s not a song title like “Fur Elise,” it’s a piece written in a particular musical form with a descriptive label up front.
Posted by mako1138 | May 2, 2012, 11:54 amChrist, I remember when Commie tried to pass of “Epic fail, Sage” and Kurisu using the word “Autistic” as a good translation in the Steins;Gate OVA.
There’s a difference between “localization” and “bastardization”.
Posted by Conri | May 4, 2012, 11:14 amI think it depends on context.
If the original Japanese dialog or signs were meant to be online board insults, then it can be acceptable IMO. I haven’t watched it yet.
Posted by 8thSin | May 4, 2012, 7:31 pmUm, yeah? 4chan memes for 2ch memes. Crunchyroll did the same thing.
Posted by Xythar | May 4, 2012, 7:37 pmI can’t remember which translator did it, but the most idiotic localization in Steins;Gate was translating “Tsundere” to “Hot n’ Cold” and then explaining what the new phrase is supposed to mean.
That was pretty much a “keikaku means plan” level fuckup but in the other direction, and a great example of why obsessively removing every japanism, even the typically understood ones with no direct english counterparts, can be just as counterproductive for making the translation more understandable, as leaving in the more gratuitous ones.
Posted by Alterego 9 | May 5, 2012, 6:50 amIf it’s explained afterwards then I don’t see why the editor couldn’t use any term they liked.
I think brainchild mentioned that the reason “Hot ‘n’ Cold” was used specifically was because it tied into Kurisu being embarrassed that she knew what it was, or something.
That’s pretty much ancient history now, though. My own strategy for “tsundere” is to just use whatever makes sense in context based on the meaning they are trying to get across by using the word. I’ve had to do a bit of this in both Acchi Kocchi and Kore wa Zombie OTD. Substituting a specific term seems to raise too much ire.
Posted by Xythar | May 6, 2012, 2:29 am>> I think brainchild mentioned that the reason “Hot ‘n’ Cold” was used specifically was because it tied into Kurisu being embarrassed that she knew what it was, or something.
Which is exactly why it shouldn’t have been translated that way. I’m sorry, but I don’t know a single Western fan who recognizes “Hot ‘n Cold” as the name of that character type. If the point of that scene was that Kurisu was using netspeak/fanspeak, then translating it to “Hot n’ Cold” utterly fails to get the point across.
>> My own strategy for “tsundere” is to just use whatever makes sense in context based on the meaning they are trying to get across by using the word.
Great strategy. Though in a sense it’s not even a strategy. It’s what I like to call “translation”.
>> Substituting a specific term seems to raise too much ire.
Because it’s bad translation. You can make fun of people who always translate “shou ga nai -> it can’t be helped” or “sasuga -> as expected”, but if you insist “tsundere -> bipolar” or “keigo -> Old English” then you’re doing the exact same thing.
Posted by lygerzero0zero | May 6, 2012, 3:12 amI think “she blows hot and cold” is a pretty decent translation of tsundere myself.
Posted by FalseDawn | May 5, 2012, 6:56 amDecent, in the same way as “general” is a decent translation of “shogun”, or “nerd” is a decent translation of “otaku”. Maybe, in a context where you desperately need to put it in natural english words for an especially ignorant audience, it is good enough. It could be either that, or “bipolar” would work too.
But all of these are less accurate than “Tsundere” itself, as a loanword that is already at least as well-known by the potentional audience than many english slang words, and by far the easiest way to describe the anime archetype in-universe.
For example in Steins;Gate, it was SUPPOSED TO BE otaku jargon. The whole point of it’s usage was that contrary to expectations, Kurisu recognized 2ch jargon words, (that were localized to 4ch jargon, such as “lurk moar”), and she also understood it when Daru referred to her as a “Hot ‘n Cold” character.
Posted by Alterego 9 | May 5, 2012, 10:23 amOh I’m not suggesting it’s a particularly good one for that situation (haven’t seen the show) but it works as a decent translation. Same with nerd for otaku – if you’re looking to localise a script, they’re good ways to go.
I don’t see why it’s any less correct to use a localisation or to keep it as tsundere/otaku/etc.
Oh, and for the record, “bipolar” wouldn’t work very well because it actually suggests that it’s a disorder rather than just a character trait (admittedly, could work in certain situations but more often than not, seems out of place).
Posted by FalseDawn | May 6, 2012, 5:27 pmtl;dr (Actually I did read everything…)
Keep it up, 8thsin. The majority of people enjoy your fansub comparisons, no matter what an insignificant group of people might say.
Posted by ChobitsChi | June 2, 2012, 3:12 pm